Bob Woodward is BACK.

LISTEN TO PART ONE HERE!

PART TWO:

J: We seem to always be looking for change every election cycle…which brings me to the notion of…do you see any viable Democratic candidates out there now? People where you go, like, yeah. I mean, that this person might be able to really help things?

B: You can't see at this point. It’s a trough for the Democratic Party.

J: Remember, they spotted Obama very early. There was no particular, I mean, he hadn't done that much yet, but people just went, he has whatever it it takes, somehow.

B: Yes, but that was a different time. So, Karl Rove, who was one of the presidential aides…I remember talking to him about the Iraq War, and he said, it all depends on the outcome. Outcomes. Do we win? Do we lose? Is it perceived that we win or lose? And there's a lot of truth to that in politics and other things.

J: Do you feel any physical Jeopardy, any kind of jeopardy right now? I mean, given your the books you've done on Trump and I don't want to get into the lawsuits, obviously, but any physical jeopardy, any sense of nervousness on your part?

B: Just to be careful. And, yeah, I mean, that's all you can do, I think.

J: Yeah. And it's a weird world. Just a little bit of a shift - in terms of news organizations, and in the current climate, young people are getting their news on TikTok and online, or whatever you want to call that word. I don't know if it's news anymore. And what's your perception of news organizations, the CNNs and MSNBCs and New York Times? And not to lump them all together, obviously, but Washington Post, Wall Street Journal, etc.

B: There's a lot of good work, no question about that. But I think the bell needs to be rung a little louder. I think what's going on with Trump and this is not partisan. This is just the impact on the economy and the uncertainty and the way, again, I take this theme of Trump doesn't think, “Oh, you do A and the consequence will be C or D or E”... he just does it and…I think it is a significantly perilous time for the country.

J: Now, are you still reading papers?

B: Yes.

J: What paper papers do you read?

J: The Washington Post, where I still work and have a title, and The New York Times, Wall Street Journal…the internet. I mean, one of the things on the internet you see is somebody's advertising a story or something you want to read, and then you click on it and they say, all you have to do is subscribe for a year, that's only $1, or we want you to do the following. I think, in the marketing world, people are making a mistake. I think they need to say, okay, we've got this product. Let's rise or fall on it and put it out there. Make it accessible to people, and then they can test it. But, I mean, does that ever happen to you on the internet?

J: Which?

B: Where you want to read something and they say you have to subscribe?

J: All the time. Yes, of course.

B: Oh, if I may ask you one thing, in reading your memoir, you said that at night, it's very important to children or your partner to hug and say, I love you.

J: Yeah.

B: Now, how did you learn that? I totally agree.

J: That's a big part of this book about how to be a better dad. And it's, you know, hugging. I'll do half a page on hugging. It's very rapid fire. It just moves and moves and has the same voices as the memoir. But with hugging. My only memory of my hugging my father was on his deathbed, and, you know. And there it is.

B: That’s so sad, isn't it?

J: Yeah, yeah. But, but the lesson…a couple things in terms of the lesson. One, was that I hug Jack every time I see him. And when he was a kid, every night, he got a hug. Every night, every single night, if we dropped off at school, he got a hug and he was comfortable with it. It was fine. It was okay. The other little thing that helped me, in addition to the experience with my father and not wanting to be that kind of dad. And he wasn't a bad person, my father, but that's just the way he was. He grew up, you know, as you know, from the book in the Newburgh poorhouse. But a good friend of mine, we ate dinner at - and he’s a teacher - and we ate dinner at his house one night, and his two boys were both football players, and after dinner, they started out the door. They're gonna go out - it was Saturday night or whatever the hell. And he says, where the hell are you two going? And they go, we're going out. I said, not, come here. And he called them over, and he gave them a hug before they went out. And I said, that was really cool. I like that. That's a great lesson for me. And between that and my own father, so hugs became a big part of my life. And then I love you. I saw a lot of men have trouble saying I love you, and so I try to encourage them in the book to say I love you. I love you, Bob. Ha.

B: Also in your book, there's a lot of confidence, but also there's a lot of humility. And I was struck by that. And I think humility is an important quality. And you, if it doesn't come naturally, you need to beat it into yourself.

J: Well, it got beaten into me through Catholic schools. Yeah, no, to me, it's just, it's all logical and sane. Honestly. I mean, you just look at this stuff and you go like, you know, I write a lot of books, so what? It's not a big thing. And I think that's another thing we try to do with Jack. And interestingly, he grew up in Palm Beach, with a lot of rich people here. He went to good schools. He met the sons and daughters of a lot of famous people, but for the most part, all of them are pretty modest about it. They just Yeah, my dad did, or my mom did this or that or whatever, but that's not- I didn't do anything, which I think is very healthy, and that's a good way to be.

J: So, I hear there's a sequel to All the President's Men coming and it’s All the President's Trolls? So who should play you? Now, remember Redford is like 88 now, so I don't know if you want an old guy like that playing you.

B: So, my wife Elsa and I saw him recently, and, yeah, he was in great shape.

J: Yeah, he’s irritating.

B: No trouble in terms of thinking and remembering. And it was a great reunion.

J: Quite frankly, I spent half an hour with him one night at the Bel-Air outside. And it was interesting to me. He's pretty small, right?

B: No, well…

J: No, he's normal? Okay, but it was weird because he was sitting on his legs at dinner. And I thought that's kind of interesting. You know, I had the sense that he was maybe smaller than he is, but that was our one level half hour. Was very charming and nice.

J: You know, another thing that’s said about you, is this notion of, you know, that you keep the government honest, or you're one of the people that keeps the government honest. So, what's next? If you're not comfortable talking about the next book, or whatever, it's fine.

B: Well, it's not that I'm not comfortable. It's that I'm not sure. Obviously I'm gathering string on lots of things, talking, trying to make an assessment. And is it possible to find out and get new material? And I think it is, but I think at this time, it's particularly hard. People in the inner circle of various political figures and so forth, that it's, it's very closed, it always has been closed. And you have to find a way to win the trust of people, you know to tell me what's going on?

J: And, yeah, well, it's certainly neat. I mean, once again, getting back to this notion of helping people to understand a little more than they do. Because obviously, an awful lot of people on the left and the right don't really understand, but they think they do. You're talking about arrogance. Oh my god, or whatever the heck it is. You know, people just aren't digging very deep. And as people move away from reading in books, they dig even more shallow graves for all of us.

B: Well, what I'm doing now is writing a memoir of my reporting.

J: Oh, okay!

B: So really not so personal, obviously a little personal, but stories about how I reported various matters.

J: That sounds incredibly fascinating to me, because you've met so many people, you've heard so many stories. You know, the thing about my memoir, it's kind of miraculous in a way, because I haven't done shit. You know, you've really met a lot of people, you've experienced things, you know, I sit in my room and write books and eat a little bit, and you know, whatever. But what you've done and the people you've spoken to and the stories you've heard and the things you've experienced, it's incredibly rich. So I really look forward to that. Very great.

B: Well, thank you. You've got to really dig into it, though. It’s you know what that one of the interesting questions is, how far do you take and go down the road of self examination,

and have somebody read, I mean, in reading your memoir, I said, oh, this, this guy kind of gets who he is and has reached a point of of comfort about who he is, and that obviously is

the goal, isn't it?

J: I'm not very goal-oriented, yeah. But that's exactly what I was trying in so far as I could, to accomplish. I don't, I don't think about goals. I don't know why. I guess I do in the sense that every project that I take on, I want it to be the best thing I can do. There's a line, I’ve used this a couple times lately. I don't know where it comes from, but, but it's been driving me, and I think it's more valuable actually, for people in their 20s than it is for me, but the language is “my time here is short…what can I do most beautifully?” And it probably relates to what your next book is going to be, too. And it's why, I mean, I just about a year ago, I started writing a novel with Viola Davis, and I'm really glad that I'm doing it. It's a good story. I love working with her, because she's, wired in a good way, she's really intense in a good way, and that pushes us to do a better book. So I'm glad that I thought that we could do a beautiful thing.

B: Well, you believe in collaboration, which is, I mean, you don't do anything alone.

J: Well, I do, but, not a lot, but I do. But you know, if you start thinking, The Sistine Chapel, I mean here are these X number of really good painters up there, and they're doing, you know, it was a collaboration. Yeah, I've said this many times before. I mean, if the world is going to get saved, and I hope it will, it's going to be because we learn to collaborate.

B: And so, do you know Trump at all?

J: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know him. I know some of the family, I'll tell you. I mean, this is where I'm at in terms of trying to get an understanding. And obviously, I know President Clinton very well. We're going to do our third book in June, I think it comes out, and he and Hillary. And there's little things. The first time Sue and I went out with with President Clinton and Hillary,

we were out for three or four hours having dinner, and during the meal, three or four times during the meal, they were holding hands under the table, and people don't think of them that way. Obviously, it's a complicated, they're both very smart, things have happened. But you suddenly begin to understand a little better.

J: In terms of the Trump family. We know Eric and Lara a little bit. And their little boy had lost his sock puppet, and Sue and I were driving home, and she said, I know where to get the sock puppets and that particular one, and they couldn't find it, so she ordered it, and two days later, we just knocked on the door and Lara came down, and we gave her the sock puppet. And we're not, we're not, you know, it's not a political thing. We're not Republicans, but it was just that, you know, it's a people thing. Here's a sock puppet for the little boy. I hope it helps, and I'm sure it did. And it's just, you know, going way back, it used to be, you know, at the end of a congressional session, or whatever, guys would go out and have a steak together, Democrats and Republicans and okay, this is better. This is a better way to do things, a more human way. And we've gotten away from that. Unfortunately, I don't know that we'll ever get back. We probably won't, yeah.

B: One of the things you said in your memoir, a moment can change a life. And was there a moment that changed your life? If you take, took it all, and you said, what I want to locate, this was the pivot point, or this was the change.

J: There are points, there are things. I mean, you mentioned, you know, going in that Sunday or Saturday for the Watergate thing that clearly, I mean, you probably would have, you're such a good writer, you probably would have figured out other stories. But that clearly changed you, that catapulted you onto another level at a very young age. For me, it's the luck of having a couple of people along the way who believed in me, because, you know, I was, I didn't have a lot of confidence, I was relatively shy, and to have people. So my grandmother was a big one. I had a professor at Vanderbilt, who, he just said, you got it. You can really write. So that was big.

So it's things like that that stick out to me. I don't know that there was one particular,

B: I mean, I love your books. I love that I read you've had 67 number one bestsellers.

J: I have no idea.

B: That is absolutely astonishing.

J: My thing is, always, I'm just hoping the next book will be as good or better than, you know. I was happy with the memoir. It was during COVID that I wrote it, and I didn't want it to suck.

But, I became a better writer after that, which is interesting at my age. Paid more attention to the sentences, you know.

B: Let me ask you this, if I may, and this is intrusive intention.

J: Who the hell's the interview is this anyway?! So I see how this happens, how this spill their gut thing? You've spilled nothing. A little bit about your wife. I'm sorry. Go ahead.

B: So what do you do with your money?

J: The one thing we do, which I think is I'm really happy about and I really give credit to my mother and my grandmother. We give away a lot. We've given away about 170 million so far, and about half of everything that we have is going. The latest thing, which I really like, because it's the kind of thing I like to - they'll never be a building. I don't do buildings with our names on it. It does not appeal to me at all. But we have now, I think it's 27 historically black universities and colleges, and we have scholarships at them. I'm going to add another 10 soon. And the thing about those schools is they have no money. And so when you do scholarships, they don't have - they have very little money for scholarships. So a lot of kids are going to leave there with the debt, or they can't even go when they get accepted because they don't have the money to pay the tuition or whatever the hell it is. So I really like that one. It's very clean. There's no middle, there's no bureaucracy, the money just goes to scholarships. Boom. And I don't like it when, you know, and the school goes, oh, we want to put the money into our big fund, and we're going to take out 5% a year, and I'm going, no, I'm not going into your slush fund. Why? Because I don't think you're very wise about how you spend your money anyway. That's what I see. I just watch. I go, this is so sloppy. You know, no, we're not doing that. But scholarships where the kid there is, and there's the kid, and in those schools, it's a big deal. They get a scholarship man and the family wants to call you, and it's so I like that a lot. I think it's a good thing to do. We'll try to do more of it. Now. We're trying to do more. We're adding. We're doing a thing. I went to Manhattan College, catholic college, undergrad, we're trying to work with them now to to propel them forward. So let me see how that works out.

B: Okay, well, but that's very important. Now, you know, you ask where you said you've given away about 170 million. I read a lot about you and never saw that now…

J: The only reason I start bringing up stuff like that is just to encourage other people

to and with the historically black colleges, what I'll do is I want to talk to the president or chancellor for 10 minutes and I say, here's the thing, just pay attention to the kids. If you lose a kid, you lose the scholarship. So be careful who you put in there. And then at the end of the year, have them send me two, three, four pages on something that hit them during the year that they can take out into the world. And that's kind of it. That's how you get a year. And no middle all of them.

B: Do you read them all?

J: Yes. Fortunately, they don't all come on the same day. But, yeah, I try to keep it simple, I don't have a lot of people working for me.. It doesn't have to operate that way. I don't like middlemen. Middlemen are in the way of everything. Medicine.

B: You know that's really important, because middlemen or middlepersons always take a share. My wife, Elsa, and I have a small foundation, and we give away money. And

it's, I like your theory of it. I learned something. Make it very simple.

J: Well, the other thing that we try to do is it's pretty much everything is bookstores, libraries and education. So, when people come for other things, we go, we kind of don't go there. It makes it a little easier to simplify things. And I love scholarships, yeah. And not full scholarships. Yeah, because I like the kids to have some skin in the game. Somebody just came to us, one of the schools. Some of these schools are so nuts, and they come to us with this thing, 4.5 million for eight kids to go, whatever later and eventually into medical school. It's half a million dollars a kid. I'm like, what are you kidding? Wer’e not going to do half a million dollars a kid. That's crazy. I'd much rather do 400 kids. And you know, it's what? Who are these people? I just thought, It's astonishing to me.

B: And what they're doing is looking out for the institution rather than the people…you've taught me something really important, and that is, I mean, we've, with our foundation, give it locally, where you can actually see, but your idea of a scholarship, and you can go to any school, high school, college.

J: We've got, we have Howard. We have, I think, 20 at Howard in Washington DC, and I'll tell you what. I visited there and I don't want to get into exactly, just because it varies from school to school. It's a fair amount. But once again, it's, you know, but the thing of it is, no matter what it is, and it's a reasonable amount of money, but it's like, it's money that wasn't there yesterday. But I did go up there, and I met about half the kids, and it was great. It was great. They're so appreciative. And they're very bright, bright kids, very motivated. Tragically, most of them want to be writers, which is a tough gig. We are also the biggest contributors out at the Iowa Writers’ Workshop, and that's another tough one. We were out there this summer, and they're all good writers. And you just want to say, you know, you're going to have to figure out a way to make money, otherwise you're going to be this great writer, and you, you know, every two years you publish a story in The New Yorker, and then you're working as a barista. You don't want to tell these kids to think about that, but, I mean, it's like, yeah, you're gonna have to kind of figure stuff out here, because you're such a good writer. And I'm not sure what to tell you, but you might want to think about how you can make some money with your writing, in addition to the stuff that's sparing your soul.

B: One of the other things that you and I share is Bob Barnett.

J: Oh, him!

B: Yes, Williams & Connolly. And, I've known Bob for decades, and he's, and it's an amazing law firm, and he's an amazing man who knows how to look out for clients.

J: Yes. He's a total straight shooter. Very smart and good friend, a very good friend. We enjoy and Rita a ton.

B: Yeah, same here, same here. Elsa and I the same.

J: I heard you guys went out to dinner the other night.

B: Yes!

J: This is great fun for me. And thank you so much.

B: Thank you. Look at, you know, the lesson of how to give scholarships is really an important one. And I thank you.

J: Well, I think once again, part of it is, I mean, what fits you, what fits you and your wife? This fits us. And the thing I love about it is there's nothing in the middle. There's no nobody's taking their piece and it's just there it is.. One of the areas we're doing a thing with is the University of Florida now, we've been working on this for a while. The percentage of kids reading at grade level in the country is like 43% and that's going down with COVID, which is a disgrace. The University of Florida has a program, not my program. They have a program they can get it up into the low 80s. That will save thousands and thousands of lives. We have helped them to get it into, I don't know, 13 or 14 counties in Florida. Florida is now partly helping them. They're number one in black kids reading at grade level, and number one, I think, or number one or number two in Latino kids. Yeah, this thing works. I was, we're doing a little documentary movie, and last week, I went out to one of the schools. It's stunning. I sat in on the kindergarten and in the second grade class. These kids are so tuned into this. It's unbelievable. They love it. They're sitting, they're doing the you know, it just warms your heart. I think the documentary would be really cool. And yeah. So I'm just hoping we can get this thing going. The thing is, we have the vaccine. We just have to get states to use it now.

B: Where does your personal discipline come from? When you sit down to write.

J: I wake up in the morning with stuff buzzing in my brain, and I can't wait to get into the office. Although my bride and I, we will go out a lot in the mornings and play like nine holes. First thing. We do it. We're not running around. We do it for like an hour. And yeah, we enjoy each other. I mean, part of the secret, I guess, is to marry a best friend. It doesn't have to be your best friend, but a best friend, yeah? So Sue. I mean, I think Sue is my best friend.

B: Yeah, Elsa is mine, and it's a daily learning experience, if you pay attention.

J: But, yeah, no, automatic pilot is not - that’s boring anyway, so we keep it interesting. And she's just finished her second novel. So first one did well, it's a good book too. Things I Wish I Told My Mother. Good title and a good mother- daughter kind of story. So, you know? She's impressive, and she keeps growing, which is nice.

B: I've gravitated toward one word titles.

J: Okay, yeah, I saw that. It looks good. I can, you know, look right in the back there it is, War. Boom. Gotcha. Yeah, I'm for that. I'm for that. I haven't done it very often. I'd have to think about it.

B: But yeah, okay, well, you've been very kind.

J: Oh no, no, no. This is a treat for me. Okay. Well, good luck with your memoir and you know, whatever charities you want to that makes sense for you and Elsa.

B: And good luck with the things buzzing in your head in the morning.

J: Okay, bye, bye.

B: Thank you. Bye.