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The Idaho Four began with a single photograph: a happy image of youthful promise horribly at odds with the breaking news that the four smiling college students in the picture had been, just hours later, fatally stabbed in their beds.

When I spoke with investigative reporter Vicky Ward about the case, it turned out that she’d had the very same feeling about the photograph of the victims. About the unspeakable loss of these four young people and the deeper meaning it carried for their families, their friends, their neighbours, and for all of us.

Bryan Kohberger, the man accused of their murders, is a former PhD student in criminology. His motive for committing these crimes has been a difficult one to pin down. It’s a question that’s explored in this book—and one that might also have come out at the trial that was scheduled for August 2025. But now that Kohberger has suddenly agreed to plead guilty to all counts, it’s unlikely that there will ever be a trial.

Watch the first part of my two-part conversation with Vicky. You’ll learn about the incredible, on-the-ground reporting and the news from the more than 300 original interviews and the ongoing conversations we’ve had victims’ families and friends, right up through the past few days. You may think you know what happened in this case, but you don’t—and won’t—until you read The Idaho Four.

Learn more about the book here.

PART ONE (stay tuned for more)!

Click here for all things Michael Connelly.

LISTEN TO PART ONE HERE!

PART TWO:

J: We seem to always be looking for change every election cycle…which brings me to the notion of…do you see any viable Democratic candidates out there now? People where you go, like, yeah. I mean, that this person might be able to really help things?

B: You can't see at this point. It’s a trough for the Democratic Party.

J: Remember, they spotted Obama very early. There was no particular, I mean, he hadn't done that much yet, but people just went, he has whatever it it takes, somehow.

B: Yes, but that was a different time. So, Karl Rove, who was one of the presidential aides…I remember talking to him about the Iraq War, and he said, it all depends on the outcome. Outcomes. Do we win? Do we lose? Is it perceived that we win or lose? And there's a lot of truth to that in politics and other things.

J: Do you feel any physical Jeopardy, any kind of jeopardy right now? I mean, given your the books you've done on Trump and I don't want to get into the lawsuits, obviously, but any physical jeopardy, any sense of nervousness on your part?

B: Just to be careful. And, yeah, I mean, that's all you can do, I think.

J: Yeah. And it's a weird world. Just a little bit of a shift - in terms of news organizations, and in the current climate, young people are getting their news on TikTok and online, or whatever you want to call that word. I don't know if it's news anymore. And what's your perception of news organizations, the CNNs and MSNBCs and New York Times? And not to lump them all together, obviously, but Washington Post, Wall Street Journal, etc.

B: There's a lot of good work, no question about that. But I think the bell needs to be rung a little louder. I think what's going on with Trump and this is not partisan. This is just the impact on the economy and the uncertainty and the way, again, I take this theme of Trump doesn't think, “Oh, you do A and the consequence will be C or D or E”... he just does it and…I think it is a significantly perilous time for the country.

J: Now, are you still reading papers?

B: Yes.

J: What paper papers do you read?

J: The Washington Post, where I still work and have a title, and The New York Times, Wall Street Journal…the internet. I mean, one of the things on the internet you see is somebody's advertising a story or something you want to read, and then you click on it and they say, all you have to do is subscribe for a year, that's only $1, or we want you to do the following. I think, in the marketing world, people are making a mistake. I think they need to say, okay, we've got this product. Let's rise or fall on it and put it out there. Make it accessible to people, and then they can test it. But, I mean, does that ever happen to you on the internet?

J: Which?

B: Where you want to read something and they say you have to subscribe?

J: All the time. Yes, of course.

B: Oh, if I may ask you one thing, in reading your memoir, you said that at night, it's very important to children or your partner to hug and say, I love you.

J: Yeah.

B: Now, how did you learn that? I totally agree.

J: That's a big part of this book about how to be a better dad. And it's, you know, hugging. I'll do half a page on hugging. It's very rapid fire. It just moves and moves and has the same voices as the memoir. But with hugging. My only memory of my hugging my father was on his deathbed, and, you know. And there it is.

B: That’s so sad, isn't it?

J: Yeah, yeah. But, but the lesson…a couple things in terms of the lesson. One, was that I hug Jack every time I see him. And when he was a kid, every night, he got a hug. Every night, every single night, if we dropped off at school, he got a hug and he was comfortable with it. It was fine. It was okay. The other little thing that helped me, in addition to the experience with my father and not wanting to be that kind of dad. And he wasn't a bad person, my father, but that's just the way he was. He grew up, you know, as you know, from the book in the Newburgh poorhouse. But a good friend of mine, we ate dinner at - and he’s a teacher - and we ate dinner at his house one night, and his two boys were both football players, and after dinner, they started out the door. They're gonna go out - it was Saturday night or whatever the hell. And he says, where the hell are you two going? And they go, we're going out. I said, not, come here. And he called them over, and he gave them a hug before they went out. And I said, that was really cool. I like that. That's a great lesson for me. And between that and my own father, so hugs became a big part of my life. And then I love you. I saw a lot of men have trouble saying I love you, and so I try to encourage them in the book to say I love you. I love you, Bob. Ha.

B: Also in your book, there's a lot of confidence, but also there's a lot of humility. And I was struck by that. And I think humility is an important quality. And you, if it doesn't come naturally, you need to beat it into yourself.

J: Well, it got beaten into me through Catholic schools. Yeah, no, to me, it's just, it's all logical and sane. Honestly. I mean, you just look at this stuff and you go like, you know, I write a lot of books, so what? It's not a big thing. And I think that's another thing we try to do with Jack. And interestingly, he grew up in Palm Beach, with a lot of rich people here. He went to good schools. He met the sons and daughters of a lot of famous people, but for the most part, all of them are pretty modest about it. They just Yeah, my dad did, or my mom did this or that or whatever, but that's not- I didn't do anything, which I think is very healthy, and that's a good way to be.

J: So, I hear there's a sequel to All the President's Men coming and it’s All the President's Trolls? So who should play you? Now, remember Redford is like 88 now, so I don't know if you want an old guy like that playing you.

B: So, my wife Elsa and I saw him recently, and, yeah, he was in great shape.

J: Yeah, he’s irritating.

B: No trouble in terms of thinking and remembering. And it was a great reunion.

J: Quite frankly, I spent half an hour with him one night at the Bel-Air outside. And it was interesting to me. He's pretty small, right?

B: No, well…

J: No, he's normal? Okay, but it was weird because he was sitting on his legs at dinner. And I thought that's kind of interesting. You know, I had the sense that he was maybe smaller than he is, but that was our one level half hour. Was very charming and nice.

J: You know, another thing that’s said about you, is this notion of, you know, that you keep the government honest, or you're one of the people that keeps the government honest. So, what's next? If you're not comfortable talking about the next book, or whatever, it's fine.

B: Well, it's not that I'm not comfortable. It's that I'm not sure. Obviously I'm gathering string on lots of things, talking, trying to make an assessment. And is it possible to find out and get new material? And I think it is, but I think at this time, it's particularly hard. People in the inner circle of various political figures and so forth, that it's, it's very closed, it always has been closed. And you have to find a way to win the trust of people, you know to tell me what's going on?

J: And, yeah, well, it's certainly neat. I mean, once again, getting back to this notion of helping people to understand a little more than they do. Because obviously, an awful lot of people on the left and the right don't really understand, but they think they do. You're talking about arrogance. Oh my god, or whatever the heck it is. You know, people just aren't digging very deep. And as people move away from reading in books, they dig even more shallow graves for all of us.

B: Well, what I'm doing now is writing a memoir of my reporting.

J: Oh, okay!

B: So really not so personal, obviously a little personal, but stories about how I reported various matters.

J: That sounds incredibly fascinating to me, because you've met so many people, you've heard so many stories. You know, the thing about my memoir, it's kind of miraculous in a way, because I haven't done shit. You know, you've really met a lot of people, you've experienced things, you know, I sit in my room and write books and eat a little bit, and you know, whatever. But what you've done and the people you've spoken to and the stories you've heard and the things you've experienced, it's incredibly rich. So I really look forward to that. Very great.

B: Well, thank you. You've got to really dig into it, though. It’s you know what that one of the interesting questions is, how far do you take and go down the road of self examination,

and have somebody read, I mean, in reading your memoir, I said, oh, this, this guy kind of gets who he is and has reached a point of of comfort about who he is, and that obviously is

the goal, isn't it?

J: I'm not very goal-oriented, yeah. But that's exactly what I was trying in so far as I could, to accomplish. I don't, I don't think about goals. I don't know why. I guess I do in the sense that every project that I take on, I want it to be the best thing I can do. There's a line, I’ve used this a couple times lately. I don't know where it comes from, but, but it's been driving me, and I think it's more valuable actually, for people in their 20s than it is for me, but the language is “my time here is short…what can I do most beautifully?” And it probably relates to what your next book is going to be, too. And it's why, I mean, I just about a year ago, I started writing a novel with Viola Davis, and I'm really glad that I'm doing it. It's a good story. I love working with her, because she's, wired in a good way, she's really intense in a good way, and that pushes us to do a better book. So I'm glad that I thought that we could do a beautiful thing.

B: Well, you believe in collaboration, which is, I mean, you don't do anything alone.

J: Well, I do, but, not a lot, but I do. But you know, if you start thinking, The Sistine Chapel, I mean here are these X number of really good painters up there, and they're doing, you know, it was a collaboration. Yeah, I've said this many times before. I mean, if the world is going to get saved, and I hope it will, it's going to be because we learn to collaborate.

B: And so, do you know Trump at all?

J: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know him. I know some of the family, I'll tell you. I mean, this is where I'm at in terms of trying to get an understanding. And obviously, I know President Clinton very well. We're going to do our third book in June, I think it comes out, and he and Hillary. And there's little things. The first time Sue and I went out with with President Clinton and Hillary,

we were out for three or four hours having dinner, and during the meal, three or four times during the meal, they were holding hands under the table, and people don't think of them that way. Obviously, it's a complicated, they're both very smart, things have happened. But you suddenly begin to understand a little better.

J: In terms of the Trump family. We know Eric and Lara a little bit. And their little boy had lost his sock puppet, and Sue and I were driving home, and she said, I know where to get the sock puppets and that particular one, and they couldn't find it, so she ordered it, and two days later, we just knocked on the door and Lara came down, and we gave her the sock puppet. And we're not, we're not, you know, it's not a political thing. We're not Republicans, but it was just that, you know, it's a people thing. Here's a sock puppet for the little boy. I hope it helps, and I'm sure it did. And it's just, you know, going way back, it used to be, you know, at the end of a congressional session, or whatever, guys would go out and have a steak together, Democrats and Republicans and okay, this is better. This is a better way to do things, a more human way. And we've gotten away from that. Unfortunately, I don't know that we'll ever get back. We probably won't, yeah.

B: One of the things you said in your memoir, a moment can change a life. And was there a moment that changed your life? If you take, took it all, and you said, what I want to locate, this was the pivot point, or this was the change.

J: There are points, there are things. I mean, you mentioned, you know, going in that Sunday or Saturday for the Watergate thing that clearly, I mean, you probably would have, you're such a good writer, you probably would have figured out other stories. But that clearly changed you, that catapulted you onto another level at a very young age. For me, it's the luck of having a couple of people along the way who believed in me, because, you know, I was, I didn't have a lot of confidence, I was relatively shy, and to have people. So my grandmother was a big one. I had a professor at Vanderbilt, who, he just said, you got it. You can really write. So that was big.

So it's things like that that stick out to me. I don't know that there was one particular,

B: I mean, I love your books. I love that I read you've had 67 number one bestsellers.

J: I have no idea.

B: That is absolutely astonishing.

J: My thing is, always, I'm just hoping the next book will be as good or better than, you know. I was happy with the memoir. It was during COVID that I wrote it, and I didn't want it to suck.

But, I became a better writer after that, which is interesting at my age. Paid more attention to the sentences, you know.

B: Let me ask you this, if I may, and this is intrusive intention.

J: Who the hell's the interview is this anyway?! So I see how this happens, how this spill their gut thing? You've spilled nothing. A little bit about your wife. I'm sorry. Go ahead.

B: So what do you do with your money?

J: The one thing we do, which I think is I'm really happy about and I really give credit to my mother and my grandmother. We give away a lot. We've given away about 170 million so far, and about half of everything that we have is going. The latest thing, which I really like, because it's the kind of thing I like to - they'll never be a building. I don't do buildings with our names on it. It does not appeal to me at all. But we have now, I think it's 27 historically black universities and colleges, and we have scholarships at them. I'm going to add another 10 soon. And the thing about those schools is they have no money. And so when you do scholarships, they don't have - they have very little money for scholarships. So a lot of kids are going to leave there with the debt, or they can't even go when they get accepted because they don't have the money to pay the tuition or whatever the hell it is. So I really like that one. It's very clean. There's no middle, there's no bureaucracy, the money just goes to scholarships. Boom. And I don't like it when, you know, and the school goes, oh, we want to put the money into our big fund, and we're going to take out 5% a year, and I'm going, no, I'm not going into your slush fund. Why? Because I don't think you're very wise about how you spend your money anyway. That's what I see. I just watch. I go, this is so sloppy. You know, no, we're not doing that. But scholarships where the kid there is, and there's the kid, and in those schools, it's a big deal. They get a scholarship man and the family wants to call you, and it's so I like that a lot. I think it's a good thing to do. We'll try to do more of it. Now. We're trying to do more. We're adding. We're doing a thing. I went to Manhattan College, catholic college, undergrad, we're trying to work with them now to to propel them forward. So let me see how that works out.

B: Okay, well, but that's very important. Now, you know, you ask where you said you've given away about 170 million. I read a lot about you and never saw that now…

J: The only reason I start bringing up stuff like that is just to encourage other people

to and with the historically black colleges, what I'll do is I want to talk to the president or chancellor for 10 minutes and I say, here's the thing, just pay attention to the kids. If you lose a kid, you lose the scholarship. So be careful who you put in there. And then at the end of the year, have them send me two, three, four pages on something that hit them during the year that they can take out into the world. And that's kind of it. That's how you get a year. And no middle all of them.

B: Do you read them all?

J: Yes. Fortunately, they don't all come on the same day. But, yeah, I try to keep it simple, I don't have a lot of people working for me.. It doesn't have to operate that way. I don't like middlemen. Middlemen are in the way of everything. Medicine.

B: You know that's really important, because middlemen or middlepersons always take a share. My wife, Elsa, and I have a small foundation, and we give away money. And

it's, I like your theory of it. I learned something. Make it very simple.

J: Well, the other thing that we try to do is it's pretty much everything is bookstores, libraries and education. So, when people come for other things, we go, we kind of don't go there. It makes it a little easier to simplify things. And I love scholarships, yeah. And not full scholarships. Yeah, because I like the kids to have some skin in the game. Somebody just came to us, one of the schools. Some of these schools are so nuts, and they come to us with this thing, 4.5 million for eight kids to go, whatever later and eventually into medical school. It's half a million dollars a kid. I'm like, what are you kidding? Wer’e not going to do half a million dollars a kid. That's crazy. I'd much rather do 400 kids. And you know, it's what? Who are these people? I just thought, It's astonishing to me.

B: And what they're doing is looking out for the institution rather than the people…you've taught me something really important, and that is, I mean, we've, with our foundation, give it locally, where you can actually see, but your idea of a scholarship, and you can go to any school, high school, college.

J: We've got, we have Howard. We have, I think, 20 at Howard in Washington DC, and I'll tell you what. I visited there and I don't want to get into exactly, just because it varies from school to school. It's a fair amount. But once again, it's, you know, but the thing of it is, no matter what it is, and it's a reasonable amount of money, but it's like, it's money that wasn't there yesterday. But I did go up there, and I met about half the kids, and it was great. It was great. They're so appreciative. And they're very bright, bright kids, very motivated. Tragically, most of them want to be writers, which is a tough gig. We are also the biggest contributors out at the Iowa Writers’ Workshop, and that's another tough one. We were out there this summer, and they're all good writers. And you just want to say, you know, you're going to have to figure out a way to make money, otherwise you're going to be this great writer, and you, you know, every two years you publish a story in The New Yorker, and then you're working as a barista. You don't want to tell these kids to think about that, but, I mean, it's like, yeah, you're gonna have to kind of figure stuff out here, because you're such a good writer. And I'm not sure what to tell you, but you might want to think about how you can make some money with your writing, in addition to the stuff that's sparing your soul.

B: One of the other things that you and I share is Bob Barnett.

J: Oh, him!

B: Yes, Williams & Connolly. And, I've known Bob for decades, and he's, and it's an amazing law firm, and he's an amazing man who knows how to look out for clients.

J: Yes. He's a total straight shooter. Very smart and good friend, a very good friend. We enjoy and Rita a ton.

B: Yeah, same here, same here. Elsa and I the same.

J: I heard you guys went out to dinner the other night.

B: Yes!

J: This is great fun for me. And thank you so much.

B: Thank you. Look at, you know, the lesson of how to give scholarships is really an important one. And I thank you.

J: Well, I think once again, part of it is, I mean, what fits you, what fits you and your wife? This fits us. And the thing I love about it is there's nothing in the middle. There's no nobody's taking their piece and it's just there it is.. One of the areas we're doing a thing with is the University of Florida now, we've been working on this for a while. The percentage of kids reading at grade level in the country is like 43% and that's going down with COVID, which is a disgrace. The University of Florida has a program, not my program. They have a program they can get it up into the low 80s. That will save thousands and thousands of lives. We have helped them to get it into, I don't know, 13 or 14 counties in Florida. Florida is now partly helping them. They're number one in black kids reading at grade level, and number one, I think, or number one or number two in Latino kids. Yeah, this thing works. I was, we're doing a little documentary movie, and last week, I went out to one of the schools. It's stunning. I sat in on the kindergarten and in the second grade class. These kids are so tuned into this. It's unbelievable. They love it. They're sitting, they're doing the you know, it just warms your heart. I think the documentary would be really cool. And yeah. So I'm just hoping we can get this thing going. The thing is, we have the vaccine. We just have to get states to use it now.

B: Where does your personal discipline come from? When you sit down to write.

J: I wake up in the morning with stuff buzzing in my brain, and I can't wait to get into the office. Although my bride and I, we will go out a lot in the mornings and play like nine holes. First thing. We do it. We're not running around. We do it for like an hour. And yeah, we enjoy each other. I mean, part of the secret, I guess, is to marry a best friend. It doesn't have to be your best friend, but a best friend, yeah? So Sue. I mean, I think Sue is my best friend.

B: Yeah, Elsa is mine, and it's a daily learning experience, if you pay attention.

J: But, yeah, no, automatic pilot is not - that’s boring anyway, so we keep it interesting. And she's just finished her second novel. So first one did well, it's a good book too. Things I Wish I Told My Mother. Good title and a good mother- daughter kind of story. So, you know? She's impressive, and she keeps growing, which is nice.

B: I've gravitated toward one word titles.

J: Okay, yeah, I saw that. It looks good. I can, you know, look right in the back there it is, War. Boom. Gotcha. Yeah, I'm for that. I'm for that. I haven't done it very often. I'd have to think about it.

B: But yeah, okay, well, you've been very kind.

J: Oh no, no, no. This is a treat for me. Okay. Well, good luck with your memoir and you know, whatever charities you want to that makes sense for you and Elsa.

B: And good luck with the things buzzing in your head in the morning.

J: Okay, bye, bye.

B: Thank you. Bye.

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B: I want to say, anyone who gets two holes-in-one in three days…

J: Yeah, that’s crazy.

B: I mean, that's, I've never had one.

J: Well, that's my wife's least favorite story. No, she hates it. She says, please don't tell that story again. Just quickly for the couple people out there who haven't heard it. This is five, six years ago, whatever it was. And at that point, my wife had four holes-in-one, and I had three. She's very competitive, she’s a big swimmer. And on February 6th, I had another hole-in-one, and she's very competitive. And she said, well, I don't like it, but I can live with it. And two days later, or not the next day, but the day after that, we're out together, and I get another hole-in-one with Sue with me, and we're standing on the tee and does she give me a big hug? No. Does she say great shot, honey? No. She looks at me and very appropriately and says, you've got to be shitting me. Which is an absolutely appropriate reaction.

J: Now I get disappointed if I don't get one! So anyway, I don't want to get too far down this particular rabbit hole and we won't, but currently, we're experiencing this disappointing, somewhat frightening, disturbing, chaotic, dizzying, tragic, comic moment in our history. And I was just wondering, have you seen anything, or remember anything even remotely like this in our lifetimes?

B: No, I think this is unique. Not only is it unique, but it's much, much worse than the way it's being covered. I think people in my business are just, you know, Trump did this. This is the criticism. It's coming out plain vanilla, and it's not a plain moment at all, in my view…

J: Vietnam, at least experiencing it from the viewpoint of a college kid, etc., that was, that was a crazy period for me, but not to sort of the degree of craziness that we're running into now.

J: In the spirit of trying to get you to spill your guts. How do you get people to spill their guts? How does that work? Ask them about their holes-in-one, that’s a good start.

B: Yeah, of course, ha! But it's all research. If you're interviewing somebody and they've written an obscure article for some intellectual magazine, actually get it and read it. And if it's relevant, quote from it in asking a question. I think the person will think, gee, I thought only my mother read that article. So, you bring yourself closer to the subject you're interviewing.

J: Now, that's a great tip. It's painful to have to do that much research. But also, I'm going to have to go back then and start over. I'll call you in a couple of weeks.

J: I think I've read most of your books, though - not all - but most of them. This is a little embarrassing, and it's almost plagiarism, because I've seen it so many times. But you've been called the best reporter, the best American reporter, the best reporter of all time, and all that stuff. Who are some of the reporters now or in your past that you admire, like that, that you think are really, really good ones.

B: Well, Sy (Seymour) Hersh, when he worked for The New York Times and before did the My Lai massacre story, which was, really a pivot point, at that point, I think for the country's understanding of the nightmare of Vietnam…

J: You know, that's an interesting thing to me about reading nonfiction, especially. And I think sometimes we're taught in school we're supposed to memorize this information, dates and names and whatever. But to me, what I want, if I read a book, I want to understand… and that's a word you just used, but that's what I want. I want to understand something I didn't understand before.

B: Well, you want to go where you haven't been before, and that's really central. I love in your memoir, one of the many things you said that it is so important is outline. And outlining, of course, is planning, and you've got to plan if you're doing an interview. And one of the things because I record with the permission of the person interviewed, and so I go back and read the transcripts and realize I talk too much.

J: No, I’m not agreeing with you, I’m just nodding, ha.

B: It's key to listen. And I have this little kind of habit of taking this finger and, you know, sticking it in my fingernails so it hurts is a memory aid to tell me to shut up. In other words, listen! I read these transcripts, and my assistant, Claire, will look at you and say you know…you're talking too much. Shut up. And one of the great lessons from the CIA is to let the silence suck out the truth. There's nothing more potent than silence.

J: Yeah, I just did an interview with the woman who wrote Gone Girl. And…I talked too much. I talked too much. I didn't let her talk as much as she should. Gillian Flynn, very interesting…wonderful fiction writer. Going back, if you can remember this far, and sometimes I have trouble thinking back, you're in the Navy for five years after college. How did that affect you in terms of moving you forward or whatever you needed at that point in your life?

B: I felt because this was while Vietnam was escalating in the late 60s, and I didn't like the Vietnam War at all, and I felt that I was captured, that I had no freedom. And so when I got out of the Navy after five years, it was so liberating, and I walked into The Washington Post and said, I'd like to work here. They gave me a two week tryout, which I failed.

J: Tell me about that, a little bit, failing…sometimes these things they're very painful, but over time they become a little bit more humorous.

B: Well, I never looked at it as humorous, but it was. It was a lesson because I was lucky. I walked into The Washington Post. They gave me a two week tryout, and I realized I didn't know how to do the reporting, but I realized that I loved it. This is what I want to do, and so that you know you're on a path. Did you always want to be a writer? Did you, you know you have your stint with J Walter Thompson, right?

J: Yes, I always wanted to be a writer. I just didn't feel, I didn't have the confidence to feel that I could do it. So I said, I better get a day job and, you know, and we'll do that. And yeah, I still don't have the confidence. I don't know why I have the confidence to think I can do it at this point. So, how much time passed after that first two weeks didn't work? So you kept going at them, and they eventually hired you for a while…

B: Well, they said you need to learn how to do journalism, because I didn't…I worked on my college newspaper… and the editor who was interviewing me before the two week tryout said, what's attribution? And I literally did not know what attribution was (in other words, according to the mayor or something, according to an expert, or according to the book) and he just flat out said, you do not know what you're doing, and I said thank you. And he said, why are you thanking me? And I said, because I know this is what I want to do, and I agree I need to learn. And I went to a weekly paper for a year and had some stories that The Washington Post wished they'd had. So finally, they hired me after that.

J: And how long had you been with The Washington Post when you and Bernstein were handed the Watergate story?

B: Really, nine months - I was covering night police and got a call after the Watergate burglary, where they arrested the five burglars. They sent me on a Saturday morning to the courthouse to watch them being arraigned. So, for nine months, I'd seen all kinds of burglars, but never a burglar like this, because they all had business suits. In fact, I've never seen a burglar that was well-dressed. And so I'm listening to this. And the the lead burglar, James McCord, the judge asked him where he worked, and McCord went CIA (whispering) and the judge said, speak up. And then he said, CIA. And I was sitting in the second row.

J: Oh, my God. Okay. I don't know why this all strikes me as funny, but you know, you got to laugh. Sometimes this stuff is really crazy. I have to laugh a little bit. Sorry.

B: Yes, exactly. But being seen witnessing that and just saying, no, wait a minute, this is not your average burglar… and these five men and lead burglar worked for the CIA. I mean, come on. I mean, it was like it was being stamped on my brain. This is an important story.

J: Was Bernstein involved early on, or did that happen a little later?

B: So that first day, about six of us worked on the main story, including Carl Bernstein and myself. The next day was Sunday. Two people came in, Carl and myself, realizing that this, wow, okay, got an odor about it, and then we did our first story together that Sunday that was in Monday's paper that said the lead burglar was head of security at the CIA and the Nixon reelection committee.

J: And that was that front page? That story?

B: Yes, it was the front page, and it was a mystery. And in the first story, where six of us worked, we asked the potent question, where it couldn't that not be learned who was behind this, if anyone who sponsored this, and what was the purpose of the this burglary, and in many ways, the next two years to Nixon's resignation, was answering that question, those two questions, who was by Nixon, what was to destroy the Democrats and make sure he was re elected?

J: Now somewhere in here, just to switch lanes - which I love to do - you fell in love with the wonderful Elsa, and much later, I guess Phil Donahue hooked you into contributing to a book he did with his daughter, What Makes a Marriage Last. So, what makes a marriage last?

B: Trust. And again, listening…and realizing my imperfections and lapses. And she's very gentle, but she gets to the point when you know, why are you doing this? And she's smarter than I am, much more. She reads everything, all the time…and so it's a PhD in life.

J: I have a book coming out, which I think is useful, because I think a lot of young guys are kind of lost in space and overwhelmed and the notion is how to be a better dad in one hour. And my notion is that these guys will not read a 400 page book, but they will maybe spend an hour. And my promise is that in that hour, you will pick up some things that will make you a better father. And that's really a hell of an hour to spend. But one of the key things you mentioned is trust. And one of the first things is consistency. And consistency, especially with your kids, gives you trust. It's like a referee in a ball game…if they're consistent, we know how we can play this game if they're not consistent, it's very confusing.

B: Yeah, may I just, I think inconsistency is important to teach kids and to teach them that, yeah, the world is inconsistent. Yes, it is, and you're going to be surprised. And so I wouldn't pedal consistency. I would pedal inconsistently.

J: I don't know about parents being inconsistent, so I will agree to disagree on that one. I totally agree with you about setting…when Jack was 10 or 11 or whatever, I told him, at a certain point, probably when you're 18 or 19, you're going to realize that none of this makes any freaking sense. But let me tell you right now, none of it makes any sense, so that when you're 18 or 19, when it happens…it's not going to surprise you and drive you a little crazy, and whatever. And so I always was big on, on, you know, the world is, it is what it is and it is inconsistent, and it is, well, just where we started, which is, it's never been more inconsistent than it is right now.

B: Yes, I mean, that's one. I mean we are going through, as I was trying to say, a fracture in history. And I think I would really need to pay attention to it, because I got to know Trump very well. I did three books on him and the biggest problem with Trump is he does not examine, naturally, the consequences of what he’s doing. And consequence management is really important, particularly a leader, a political figure, and he doesn't care about the consequences.

J: Yeah. I mean the first thing is obviously spotting problems, and he does it. A lot of us do that. The next thing is, what are the possible things we can do? And then, as we're discussing, you know, and then, okay, what's the consequence of that? Okay, we're going to want to cut down the government a bit, and that's probably a good thing, but where are you going to do it and what are the consequences? And these people that want it to happen, until all of a sudden, Uncle Jacob gets fired, and they go…wait a minute. Well, don't you think, if you're going to cut money out, that people are going to get fired, you know? But, they don't think about the consequences. That's absolutely right,

B: And it's the consequences that are really important. And you need a method, and you need to have some sort of layout, a plan. Now, in my interviews with Trump in 2020, the last year of his first presidency, I mean, he just has no plan. And that summer, it was the year of COVID and and I found he had all these warnings about COVID coming. It's going to kill 650,000 people, and he ignored it. And the interviews, which are all recorded with his permission. You see somebody getting the information. I mean, he could have been a hero and come out and said look, I got these warnings about this virus coming. It's going to kill, let's develop a plan. And he wouldn't plan. He somehow got this idea that somehow it was better to conceal it rather than level with people.

J: And the vaccine was developed pretty quickly. I mean, in terms of the way governments run, and that was another thing. I mean, he could have taken credit for that, and I'm surprised he didn't.

B: No he has, and rightly so. But the problem was, in the summer, 140,000 people had died of it, and I did my last interview with him. I think it was July 20th, and you know, what's the plan? What? And literally, he said, don't worry, I'm going to have a plan in 103 days. I only realized 103 days was Election Day.

J: That's some plan. You spent a lot of time with him. I mean, it's surprising to me that after the first book or whatever, he would say, well, let's do another one. But pros and cons. What? What's not talked about? What don't people understand about him?

B: Well, you've got to understand the power of his personality, and you've got to understand and you know, lot of people don't like to hear this, but he can be very charming and very outgoing, and that year of interviews when I told him that the book is coming out and he wasn't going to like it and he said why am I not going to like it? I said, well, I make some judgments that are very tough. And he said, what are those? And I said, well, I'll send you a copy of the book when it's done, but they're very severe. And he literally said, oh, maybe I'll get you on the next book. Strike one.

J: Did you send him the book before it came out?

B: No, just as it was coming out.

J: In that same vein, Joan Didion talked about some of your work and criticized, sort of the fairness of it, which is interesting to me, especially in terms of the way you've been talking - where you go out and you try as best you can to get the facts, you try to get people to say what they're what they're all about. And I think what she was saying was that she wanted you to editorialize more - which is one of the problems I think, right now, with journalism.

B: Yes, I think so. But, you know, one of the things is, you know, when you get criticism, instead of putting up a wall…you want to learn from it. And I, quite frankly, thought she had some points and I need to learn from that and try to distill out the emotional reaction.

J: To distill it out, or to put more in?

B: No, pull your own emotional reaction out and say, well, maybe that's a fair point.

J: Okay, oh, you mean in terms of her point-of-view, okay.

J: Yeah, obviously you've interviewed everybody. I mean, just sort of little portrait stuff. Nixon, who was this guy?

B: Yeah, Nixon, unfortunately, was obsessed with winning, and he worried he was not going to be reelected, so he set up an operation to try to destroy the Democrats. And he got caught. And he taped all of his conspiratorial…and the tapes at one point in my life, I had them on cassettes, and I would play them in the car instead of music, because they're so revealing about him. He was so concerned with concealing who he was and what he was doing - to secretly tape it?

J: Well, I mean, obviously, you know, President Trump is, is obsessed with winning, obsessed with it. You know on the golf thing. I mean, I've seen some of the stuff he does and go, this is really strange behavior, because the guy is, is actually a very good golfer, and so why do you cheat? I don't get it. It's like, you can see it. But he's actually good. I mean, I have played with some people. They're terrible, and they cheat you and you go, okay, fine, ha. You kicked it out of the woods. He actually is (good). It's very strange behavior.

J: Did you ever do anything with Clinton?

B: Oh, yes, I did books. He didn't like the first one, The Agenda. And it showed the chaos in the Clinton White House, and how unorganized and frankly, just to be very straight about it, I go back and I've looked at that book, and he did a pretty good job as president on two things. We had a stable economy and there was no war. And gee, that'd be nice to have now. No war. And a stable economy.

J: Yeah, that'd be good. A role model would be good too. You know, I think he's one of those people who he sees all sides of things, and sometimes people like that have trouble making decisions, and I think that's a little bit of a problem, at least in the first term, in terms of that ability to make decisions.

B: Yes, I think that's correct. But, you know, it's Clinton. Clinton is unique. And the astonishing thing about him is he came on the scene, was unknown and beat the sitting president. I mean that was amazing. And he orchestrated and he knew how to apply his personality.

J: Well, we seem to always be looking for change every election cycle. And if somebody comes in and they're looking for change, and they found him. You know, he's very smart, he's very articulate, he's great on camera…

J: Which brings me to the notion of, do you see any viable Democratic candidates out there now?

TO BE CONTINUED…

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